Flickering doors (Mover)

[Barbie]

On fixing the map MH-Invasion_4 I found strange looking movement of the doors: on moving they flicker and sometimes they are even invisible in end position. I also moved them away from the wall into the centre of that chamber but the effect remains. I've also created a new Mover - its also flickering. I decreased the size so that the Mover has no contact to any other brush: the effect remains.

If I move the Movers into a new created cube, they look perfect on movement (no flicker).

properties of all 8 Movers

I've recorded a short video also.
Any hints?

[Higor]

It's the room's fault, too many BSP nodes in that room I suppose and the mover's can't accoplate their surfaces into the main BSP tree (temporary during rendering).
Rebuild the map in a way that room's BSP tree is built completely differently.

[JackGriffin]

The mover class is really not very good. Of all the things needing a code overhaul it's right there with the best (worst) of them. Higor is right (was there any doubt?) and it's also been my experience that when multiple movers have line-of-sight with each other then you have the potential for issues. Complex BSP and movers that live flush with another surface also cause flicker with them. If you can't clear it then maybe remove the door mover and use a sheet mover with the same texture? Kinda spitballing here but I'd try it.

[Chamberly]

Yeah... if I had that, I'd send it to someone who can rebuild it without the flicker because somehow hardware difference clear it up or something.

[Barbie]

too many BSP nodes in that room

Yes, that was it : If I switch to BSP Cuts view, there are some cuts nearby the doors. If I change "Build Setting > Minimize Cuts", there are no more cuts in that room and doors movement looks fine then.

Rebuild the map in a way that room's BSP tree is built completely differently.

Can this be done with minor changes only and keeping the original mappers idea? For example I could zone that chamber or put some single subtract brushes into one. Changing something to Semi-Solid does not help here, because there are only movers and subtract brushes. (For a better judgement I've added a screenshot where I selected the two subtract brushes that forms that chamber.)

Spoiler

somehow hardware difference clear it up

Really? IMO its a matter of building the map, what this done by an algorithm what should result in same results independently of hardware. But try yourself!

[JackGriffin]

Because of the way BSP is computed you can often select the entire map and move everything one unit then rebuild and the BSP tree will look different. I think it's UGremlins.

[Barbie]

Thanks for the hint with moving, but there stays at least one cut in that chamber. Even rotating didn't help (although it would be useless if not rotated around the Y axis).

[Higor]

One time in order to fix an unfixable BSP bug...
I created a complex sphere brush and substracted it under the ground when nothing accesses it.

Someone would open the map and ask: WTF is this?
But this sphere would fix the BSP bug, because it's purpose was to alter the BSP construction around id.

Try it.

[Red_Fist]

I tried mega things, could never find a solution. The only thing is having less movers in the same space.

[sektor2111]

Recall some of maps KingsAndServants...etc_string ? It's damn cube room with 2 doors: Entrance and Exit. Looking there and at some Mover related or brush related topic and if I well recall, It's wise to have mover's surface NOT in line with a Wall surface when they are moving - If I would be Engine I would be confused about what you wanna see in this case - Mover or Wall ? Both of them have a texture - which one must have a render priority if are in the same spot ? Mover is supposed to be seen or the wall covering mover ?
Other crap might occur when some portal has a common surface with another brush. Looks like in maps with more brushes like this, flickering starts happening and it's not a good looking thing.

Aside: Map linked by you for Chamberly seems different - No Movers as shown.

Spoiler

[attachment=0]Movers_Lost.JPG[/attachment]

So the question is if map was bad or was morphed into a bad one. If it would be up on me this "single-playerstart" type is a NO MH thing. I'm not trying to figure what's happening when 8 players will try spawning in that nail-box.

EDIT:

One time in order to fix an unfixable BSP bug...
I created a complex sphere brush and substracted it under the ground when nothing accesses it.

Someone would open the map and ask: WTF is this?
But this sphere would fix the BSP bug, because it's purpose was to alter the BSP construction around id.

Try it.

Cough, gotta speak about this in a sort of tutorial named something like "Alternate try at fixing BSP issues" .
It worked somewhere for me... I gotta check other Levels badly rammed if will get fixed too... I have build a bad sphere isolated nearby that BSP problem area - problem gone. Brushes have been aligned well before, no nasty things used but... I could not get rid of invisible barrier created there. Now it's mysteriously solved.

[Barbie]

I created a complex sphere brush and substracted it under the ground

Thanks for this additional hint, but by trial and error I've found that setting "Build Setting > Minimize Cuts" to "7" the problems do not occur anymore. (For future mappers (maybe myself) I've added a big fat MapperInfo with this build information to the map - I'm sure that every mapper will find this. ^^

MapperInfo

It's wise to have mover's surface NOT in line with a Wall surface when they are moving

Yes, if both visible surfaces of wall and mover are on a plane, I've often noticed flickering effects at Movers. So I put Movers either a few UU in front of the wall or behind.

Map linked by you for Chamberly seems different - No Movers as shown

One of the previous mappers seems to like grouping for some reasons. Just enable the other groups.

GroupBrowser

MH-Invasion_4-GroupBrowser.jpg (15.34 KiB) Viewed 3397 times

I'm not trying to figure what's happening when 8 players will try spawning in that nail-box.

(Hint to readers not knowing this map: there is only one PlayerStart in a very small 128³ UU cube.) This maps seems to be designed for a single player only; also there are only a few monsters (I remember your statement on MH-Ziki: There are more movers than monsters in this map) . That's the reason why I reworked it, and I added a player start chamber with a dozens PlayerStarts in front of that 128 cube.

[sektor2111]

Original map feeling is lost if players doesn't spawn in the same way as original. I would make that spawn room a bit bigger for such MH portation. 6 PlayerStart at 100 units from ground in a room having 250z x 350x x 350y perhaps returns a better look even than original one.

[Chamberly]

I talked to the person who recompiled my map with no bsp errors lol..

Ok so the movers are good, but he have some problem around after the gasbag area.

Here is a rebuilded map. Check it out and see what you think.
(Thanks {S.o.W}Deathmask!)
http://download851.mediafire.com/z9abyb ... sion_4.unr

[Barbie]

Here is a rebuilded map

Thanks for your investigations, but in your map that Gas Bag Chamber still has BSP cuts in the area of door movers and causes flickering therefore.

created a complex sphere brush and substracted it under the ground

I tried this, but with the default build settings I still got BSP cuts in that area. Was worth a try.^^

[Red_Fist]

If it's the flickering mover problem it will happen in an empty cube room. I made a map it was a basic cube but I had one solid tall lifts in each corner that constantly move, only 4 movers , flickered.

I think it has to do with rendering vs tick rate of the engine. The movers can't get an updated tick in synch while having to render more and more movers in the same scene. I had it with 4 movers in the same room.

Also had it with rotating gears, more polys per mover. 3 gears, even 2 gears.