Playtest request for DM map

[Iacobus_Imrlz]

Details:

Map Name: DM-Surrounded
Game Mode: Deathmatch
Map Size: Medium
Number of players: 4-8
Version: 1.23 alpha
Bot support: partial
Mutators: Xpickups, ChaosUT (files not included)
Music: Gateway, by Necros
Rendering Used: D3D
Brightness Level: 5


Known Issues:

- collision issues around the hanging platform (Udamage);
(Geometry will be replaced once layout is defined)

- missing texture in one of the metal bars in the lower area;
(conflict with the zone sheet, easy fix but I don't wanna run the compiler just for that)

- players can elevator/boot boost to the edge of the map.
(to be fixed on later stages when layout is close and defined)

-lag on old computers
(geometry and lighting are not optmized and zoning only partially done. Try software rendering if you're experiencing lag)

It is too bright!
(Yes, I like well lit maps. It's not going to be that bright in the final version when light casting is properly done, but definitelly brighter than the average. For now, it is just to help vizualizing bugs and poor lit areas )

-no online playtesting performed. Please leave a comment in case you do.

Stage of Development:

Geometry: Not optmized. Waiting conclusion of Alpha playtest for definition of pickups/actors placement and final layout. (I'm still messing around with the architeture, so it will be all over the place, not matching and unpolished). Lacking detailing, ceiling architecture and a more fitting skybox. All texture popping issues (given the number of surfaces exposed in large open areas) found was fixed, please contact me in case you find any that I missed. (Brushes deleted, mainly to hide my crimes but also to avoid second hand editing before I even get the map done. Will be all there in the final version)

Textures: Theme has not been defined, textures are just placeholders for contrast and to help visualizing layout/bugs. I intend to keep the arena/lab "vibe" it has and probably add some tech\futuristic detailing (and colour!).

Lighting: Not done yet. Waiting definition of theme, texture and time of the day.

Pathing: Waiting playtest and suggestions for definition of playerstart points and weapon/pickups placement. Bots will cycle through items, all dead ends found were treated. (Bots won't reach either HealthPack or ShieldBelt). Lift and doors lacking sound.

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Spoiler

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-WuVyr7hA9A

http://www.mediafire.com/download/fzjda ... pha%29.rar

Suggestions are welcome. Please leave your feedback!

[papercoffee]

This looks very interesting already.

[Iacobus_Imrlz]

This looks very interesting already.

Let me know if it's playable!

I'm trying out things I don't see often in UT maps and not following any particular traditional style, so I really need a good sample of playtesting to see what works and what doesn't and mostly, if it's fun to play. Also, it's really hard to evaluate game flow and tweak item placement/timing only through botmatches.

[sektor2111]

Also, it's really hard to evaluate game flow and tweak item placement/timing only through botmatches.

Not a lot. You have BROKEN paths just look at them in Editor. You people, really don't understand that LiftExit-Jumpspot-Nothing leads nowhere ? WE want LE-JS-LE; LiftExit(Entry)-JumpSpot(TravelCenter)-LiftExist(Destination) which have to get links with the rest of Network else are just end-points with no sense. Pawn ever won't roam for items through such "paths" because... simply they are not paths.

For me works normally, it doesn't lag. Else I'm not using such "pickups".

[Iacobus_Imrlz]

Also, it's really hard to evaluate game flow and tweak item placement/timing only through botmatches.

Not a lot. You have BROKEN paths just look at them in Editor.

Not only that, but the lift in the back area (which was an after thought and probably will be removed) is missing the LC and LEs and some JS/LE are missing tags (and I think the top minigun isn't 'mapped'). What I meant by game flow was player movement/navigation and item cicle.
I don't want full bot support in alpha stage, nor waste time fine tunning it knowing I'll have to make it all over again. Right now I'm expecting suggestions regarding the overall layout and item placement, weapons and pickups are duplicated and many will be cut out and the geometry is aligned on grid to make it easier to make changes. Once I have the actual physical path nice and tight and items in place, I can take my time only with pathing, which will be done before lighting and texturing. I want bots being able to make all the jumps through out the map, including the tricky ones (I think I heard you saying bots can piston jump? ). For now I just want bots to move around and not get stuck. I've watched bot behavior is ghost mode for hours and only tunned the areas they'd get lost or stuck on ledges. As for pathnodes, there are lots of unnecessary left overs from previous iterations, specially in areas I placed inventory items. I just didn't want to mess with them and then have to redo the pathing in areas I had achieved the intended behavior.

You people, really don't understand that LiftExit-Jumpspot-Nothing leads nowhere ? WE want LE-JS-LE; LiftExit(Entry)-JumpSpot(TravelCenter)-LiftExist(Destination) which have to get links with the rest of Network else are just end-points with no sense. Pawn ever won't roam for items through such "paths" because... simply they are not paths.

It's not LiftExit-Jumpspot-Nothing, but Jumpspot-LiftExit. They are not meant to always jump, only when chasing players/bots or in spots where the path cross the JS (Eg: the vial trail comming from the warp, nearby the eightball, JS+LE was how I managed to get them to not get stuck on that ledge. It seems to be working fine this way. )

For me works normally, it doesn't lag. Else I'm not using such "pickups".

The shards? What's wrong with them? lol
I know this map won't be everyone's cup of tea, I'm using more as an experiment.

[OjitroC]

First, and most importantly, this map is great fun to play - the layout and design are refreshingly different to the much more common ramps/walkways approach, allowing for close and medium range fire fights on all axes as well as ambushing. I played TDM with small teams of bots and got good, lengthy and challenging games. Gameflow around the map certainly wasn't a problem. Difficult to comment on item placement but didn't find any significant problems with that either.

Don't know what theme you have in mind but the whiteness and brightness are also radically different from the norm and give the map its unique character - personally I would go for that rather than introducing darker colours and more subdued lighting.

[papercoffee]

Ok, downloaded it and will test it with my custom bots.

[sektor2111]

(Eg: the vial trail comming from the warp, nearby the eightball, JS+LE was how I managed to get them to not get stuck on that ledge. It seems to be working fine this way. )

In that case JumpSpot16 doesn't have too much participation at roaming it can be PathNode then. If by chance Bot is in ambush you could add even 2 PathNodes in the same way for getting in spot at LiftExit28 which can be the second PathNode - such things occurs at retreating or combat. If you look well JumpSpot has only Down-Way, if Bot is roaming from down-side that's not operational as a jump destination because next point linked doesn't exist. Of course you don't need to follow all rules from any manual, it's your work.
I'm playing a custom DM using translocator and... I did not see them using intensive translocator more than additional A.I.tweaking and never ImpactJump - because JumpSpots are not linked correctly. Look at default DM map and see ImpactJump how it's configured.

[Iacobus_Imrlz]

Wow @OjitroC, really nice to hear back the exact things I had in mind while making the map, so thanks for the feedback!

the layout and design are refreshingly different to the much more common ramps/walkways approach, allowing for close and medium range fire fights on all axes as well as ambushing.

Yes, it is really frustrating playing maps where the Jump button is optional or not even required and z-axis combat very predictible when not non existent. Phobos, Morpheus, Barricade, Deck16, all the most played default maps have great z-axis, tricky jumps and multipaths. I don't know why not many mappers follow this style.

I played TDM with small teams of bots and got good, lengthy and challenging games. Gameflow around the map certainly wasn't a problem. Difficult to comment on item placement but didn't find any significant problems with that either.

There're plenty weapons/health/armor so they're always lock and loaded and ready to fight back. The weapon/player spots were randomly picked so definitely will need some tweaks and maybe health pickups tunned down a bit, I'm still testing it. Path's not optimal but for now it's indeed worth for a lengthy game. I actually don't know what I did too differently but I hate in default maps how in higher difficulties bots seems to have all the fun among themselves and you have to always be running after a gun, chasing them and getting cheap frags to keep up with the score instead of planning your route and cycling through items.

Don't know what theme you have in mind but the whiteness and brightness are also radically different from the norm and give the map its unique character - personally I would go for that rather than introducing darker colours and more subdued lighting.

I started with a tundra themed castle in daytime but once I applied the current texturing scheme it just felt right and the darker floor gives a better contrast for z-axis angles. But yes, I want to make it bright to favour gameplay over mood and so you don't have to set brightness to 10 to get rid of pitch black spots and get that ugly greyish tone

Spoiler

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Ok, downloaded it and will test it with my custom bots.

Ouch! Pathing is not fine tunned and really basic so I really don't know how it will behave with mutators. Let me know the results!

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In that case JumpSpot16 doesn't have too much participation at roaming it can be PathNode then. If by chance Bot is in ambush you could add even 2 PathNodes in the same way for getting in spot at LiftExit28 which can be the second PathNode - such things occurs at retreating or combat. If you look well JumpSpot has only Down-Way, if Bot is roaming from down-side that's not operational as a jump destination because next point linked doesn't exist. Of course you don't need to follow all rules from any manual, it's your work.

What happened there is that initially the path coming from the warp would end in a curve underneath the platform. Bots were going fine from patform to side stairway. or just following the vials and going to the lower area. When I made the change they would go for the vials and get stuck on the trim. I didn't want to mess with the pathing there so I just made them jump over it. It's an ugly fix but worked just for playtest. I want to get rid of all these things and also messy/broken paths on Beta stage. i want path nice and clean and well labeled and your advices will definitely be coming in handy.

I'm playing a custom DM using translocator and... I did not see them using intensive translocator more than additional A.I.tweaking and never ImpactJump - because JumpSpots are not linked correctly.

Yes, translocator definitely came into my mind at some point, but I gotta make sure the ceiling is sealled first. I haven't even tested with low gravity yet. I want to make it playeable with the most common/popular mutators but for now I'm focusing on classic deathmatch, I want to make sure it's fun/fluent/fair before testing with mutators.

Look at default DM map and see ImpactJump how it's configured.

I think it was only once if I've ever seen bots ImpactJumping and I can't even recall if it was a default or downloaded map, so I thought it would require some tricky actors combo. The JumpSpots I placed there were only for descent movement, so bots will chase you from above, I haven't thought how to make them BootJump on the right time, after cleaning the lower areas and not prematurely, leaving items behind. Also, is it possible to make them LiftBoost?

[sektor2111]

Also, is it possible to make them LiftBoost?

A.I. might be simple to be fooled. You mean to jump outta lift in certain conditions? I think is doable with some A.I. add-on.

[Iacobus_Imrlz]

You mean to jump outta lift in certain conditions?

Yes! This lift for instance:

It's placed in the right spot to LiftBoost Jump to the Rocket Launcher, ThighPads or the Upper area where you get the Pulse gun. If you combo with the JumpBoots (I placed those Jumpboots there just for testing) you can reach the Redeemer and them go straight to the Warp entrance or dodge jump forward to either sides to spare the remaining jumps. It's there for players but it would be cool if bots could do that. The lift that leads to the ShieldBelt is there for that purpose too and most lifts through out the map take you to the 3rd floor if you LiftBoost Jump. I still have to tweak MoverSpeed so players don't bounce against the ceiling.

[OjitroC]

Iacobus_Imrlz wrote:
maybe health pickups tunned down a bit

Actually I think it could do with a little more; though that is an individual preference.

I like the use of X-Pickups and the armor shards - don't see much use of the shards in maps at all, which is a pity.

Played the map quite a bit now and battles seem to take place in different parts of the map so the flow and movement around it is good. Plenty of opportunity for jumps and for a dropping ambush (jumping down behind opponents).

I would go for a sunny, hot, humid ambiance - with a little more water - smooth, white plastered/rendered walls with the odd feature tile/mosaic panel - a few exotic plants\climbers on some of the out of the way ledges - but that's just my personal preference.

It's good to see something new, refreshing and so well-thought out.

[Iacobus_Imrlz]

Iacobus_Imrlz wrote:
maybe health pickups tunned down a bit

Actually I think it could do with a little more; though that is an individual preference.

Maybe some in harder to reach areas or more vials on walls ledges. I'm still on the 1on1 mentallity even though it's not even playeable if you go 1on1 on this map. It's gonna take ages to cap 25 frags there lol

don't see much use of the shards in maps at all, which is a pity.

Yeah, right? It's there since GOTY edition came out but nobody gave it some love. I thought of using some weapons like the crossbow but I didn't test to see if XPickups give support and also I didn't want to deviate too much from classic game style.

Played the map quite a bit now and battles seem to take place in different parts of the map so the flow and movement around it is good. Plenty of opportunity for jumps and for a dropping ambush (jumping down behind opponents).

Love jumping and flacking the heck outta bots from above lol They're still biased towards some areas though. I'll really take my time with it when I'm tunning the path to make sure they really go everywhere, like that lower area in the ShieldBelt room.

It was supposed to be an 1on1 but just kept growing and I didn't want to cut things out. I think it is really meant to be a TDM as it is now, with the double pickups and size. However, I was testing TDM on lower difficulties and found 3 dumb spots, which didn't happen on higher skill level: The lower dead end with ammo beside the round stairway, the narrow path beside the warp pathway and the pool (it seemed to work fine without pathing the pool, bots were going straight to the invisibility and them to the lift/warp). I've made some changes already and I will update the file once I make some progress in the geometry.

(Edit: Actually they were just control zonning those areas it seems. I've never watched bot behavior from afar on TDM before)

I would go for a sunny, hot, humid ambiance - with a little more water - smooth, white plastered/rendered walls with the odd feature tile/mosaic panel - a few exotic plants\climbers on some of the out of the way ledges - but that's just my personal preference.

The idea for this map came from another map I did almost to completion but it got deleted by mistake while migrating files from my old rig. The theme was "the old ruins that were transformed into a deathmatch arena" cliche. The texturing was brownish, some red lights casted from below against walls and round passways and lots of vegetation overgrowth. The whole lower area with boxes had a garden with nice custom trees and bushes imported from the TTR mod and retextured, with lights outlining the paths and sun rays from above. The Shieldbelt area was in fact way bigger and shaped in arena style with lots of fallen pieces and flooded areas in the center and a nice hacked ceiling partially blocking the sun and casting shadows over the ruins. This time around I went straight to gameplay and got rid of all the themed stuff, which takes longer and went to a more abstract style. The only areas that I preserved the layout was the center area with the logo (with some changes, I couldn't remember everything),the Rocket Launcher area (for the most part), and the Armor placement between the stairways with a pool beneath (which was covered by metal grids and had a passway for a secret area with a redeemer)

[Iacobus_Imrlz]

Changes:

Pathing

- Bias towards lower areas removed;
- Unlinked/unnecessary nodes fixed/removed;
- Bots have a better cycle and roam the entire map;
- Bots can/will access ShieldBelt and HealthPack;
- More health added as requested by OjitroC;
- 2nd RocketLauncher and ShockRifle added;
- JumpSpots tweaked/added;
- Minor support for Translocator added;
- Some BlockAll added to prevent players to jump to the map limits (there are still some gaps but its just provisory until ceiling architerure is complete)
- Sound added to Lifts/Doors

Lighting

Brightness optimized for OpenGL driver;
No major changes in decorative lighting, just small additions for testing purposes.


Geometry

Map ceiling added;
Minor changes in geometry to improve navigation/aesthetics;
2nd floor added over the pillar passageway;
ShieldBelt room remodeled;
Massive intersections to reduce poly count and BSP errors;

http://www.mediafire.com/download/z5cx0 ... %5D%5B.rar

[sektor2111]

All lifts are doors and LiftExit group "elevator1" has no mover linked, Bot went retarded there.

PathNode154 is not a good example and neither similar.